Dreaming From the Cave (The Other Side of Dreams)
Season One // Episode 1 - June 7th, 2022 // ft. Bob Goff

Dreaming From the Cave (The Other Side of Dreams)

“We don’t want to be limited by our experience. We want to be thinking and dreaming about what could be possible.”

Dreaming From the Cave (The Other Side of Dreams)
Season One
Dreaming From the Cave (The Other Side of Dreams) - ft. Bob Goff
In The Other Side of the Church Podcast’s first episode, Lathan interviews Bob Goff about ambition and breaking free of artificial boundaries. Bob says, “We don’t want to be limited by our experience. We want to be thinking and dreaming about what could be possible.” Hear the ‘Love Does’ author talk about recovering from hurt, getting curious, and reigniting old ambitions.
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Episode Transcript

You used to love being in church. The music, the people, the purpose. You experienced something authentic, but that all turned to dust. You felt manipulated, got hurt, or experienced trauma. When you tried to share your struggles, you felt silenced. No one ever truly heard your side of the story. No longer. This is where we bring back what's been swept under the rug, where healing is better than cancel culture, and where your story matters, whether you've caused pain or been hurt, this is the Other Side of the Church.

Lathan Craft: Welcome home, beloved and welcome to the very first episode of the Other Side of the Church. I'm Lathan Craft, and I am so glad you're here. Every episode of the Other Side of the Church, I'm going to talk with someone with a story that may have been swept under the rug or told in the wrong way, or just smack dab full of pain. We're going to get really real, really fast. But today for our first episode, we're actually going to be talking to one of the happiest, most full of joy people that I know. Answering the question, what do you do when it all burns down around you? Here's my conversation with author, speaker, former lawyer and friend, Bob Goff.

Bob Goff: Oh, Lathan. I'm so glad we're talking. This is good stuff. I'm actually talking to you from this camp we bought. It used to be a young life camp called Oak Bridge, but we've renamed it, the Oaks. I was telling you a little bit earlier, we had been down in the valley, adjacent to us is this world-renowned horse ranch that got abandoned 15 or 20 years ago. It is now Oak's Equestrian. So we were just down there going through their 50 stalls. Two Kentucky Derby race horses came from there, and one of them won it. So we are so excited. Here's the crazy part, and I know we're going to talk about ambitions, but I've never been on a horse before. I don't even know what end to put the hay in, but I have a new ambition. I want to create a place where horses can come.

Bob Goff: Since there's boy horses and girl horses and they give each other a special hug, and then you have baby horses. So I want to put one in the Derby. I mean, why not? I've never gone to a horse race. Here's the idea. We don't want to be limited just by our experience. We just want to be thinking and dreaming about what could be possible. That doesn't mean my whole world is horses now, but it definitely today is. I think that kind of a curiosity, I've seen that in you over the years. And I hope for people that are listening, that they've seen that in themselves. I want to get people back in touch with that.

Lathan Craft: And now time to clear the confusion.

Lathan Craft: There's a lot of misconceptions that people have both in and outside the church. But one of those misconceptions is kind of what you're talking about is God closed the door on that. I tried this, and God closed the door, so I guess it's not for me, but you actually have a different twist on that. So can you clear the confusion on what that could look like?

Bob Goff: Oh, what the heck? And took this whole God closed the door. You had an ambition. It's in your heart. It's been for 20 years. You've wanted to be a doctor or a school teacher, or you wanted to go out on a date or whatever it is. Then somebody said, "No," and you came up with this ridiculous line that God closed the door. I think the only thing that really happened is Billy said "no," or UC Davis said, "No," or Harvard said "No." Or Sally said, "No.

Bob Goff: I would just kick that door down. I mean, or go Texas style. You could shoot the hinges right off. What I want us to do is not come up with silly explanations for really important things in our lives. Indeed, if God wants to close the door, He's not going to land a lady bug on you. No, he's going to drop a piano on your head. You're going to actually know that. But if you're doing the kinds of things that God said he wanted his people to be doing: loving hungry people and thirsty people and sick people and strange people and naked people, people in jail. He doesn't ever close those doors. There might be an opportunity you don't get. It didn't mean he closed the door. It just means Billy said now.

Lathan Craft: That's really a beautiful thing because Bob, every time we talk, it's very an authentic conversation. I absolutely love it, and how real and transparent you are. I mean, you're known as a balloon guy, and you talk about that. You're known as the love does. You have a new book coming out called Dream Big, which I got the mail yesterday. So thank you for [crosstalk] dive in. But there is a authentic conversation I'd love to have with you about how the American church as a whole, or just the church as a whole may have forgotten the art of dreaming. What would you say in response to that?

Bob Goff: Yeah, just so we know who we're talking about. it's us. The church doesn't have a problem. We have a problem. One of the things that we do is that we've gotten wounded in the past. We had a big ambition. We felt like we swung for the fences, and we got shut down. I guess I want to get back to the plate again. I don't want to break the bat in disgust. I don't want to think why it's somebody else's problem.

Bob Goff: But I think we need to find a little bit quiet or spaces to reflect on these things. Maybe not doing it on the run, like the way that we are. I went to a Bruce Springsteen concert when I was in college, and I went with another guy, and he had the keys to my car. So I was asking him, "Can I have the keys to my car?" He couldn't hear me. So I started shouting, "Can I have the keys to my car?" It wasn't an accusation. I was just trying to move on along with my life. But the guy that came with us that was one row back said, "Were you guys having a fight?"

Bob Goff: I'm like, "No, no, no. I just wanted to know if he had the keys to my car." I wasn't mad. I just needed to move ahead with my life. I think sometimes in really crowded loud spaces, it looks like we're arguing with each other when we're really asking questions. I think if we could find a little bit quieter spaces to ask important questions about our faith, why do we believe what we believe? Just ask those questions. Don't give a Sunday school answer, why you're supposed to believe what you're supposed to believe. But just get really at it and authentic about it and say, "These are my fears. These are the things I have questions about." Jesus never has been out of shape with people who had questions. He didn't like people that were faking it, like they had all the answers.

Bob Goff: So just think that heaven is just delighted when we ask the most difficult questions. They're like, "Thank goodness. Thank me. Like I actually was hoping you'd ask." I think the answers come. It isn't that God gives us notes. I think he gives us each other. So if we're fully awake to each other, if we're fully present, we're not shouting over each other, then we can actually find some answers to the questions, and usually I'm not the guy with the answers. I'm the guy with a ton of questions. I think heaven just welcomes that.

Lathan Craft: You talked about a couple of times about the thing underneath the thing, which you and I have mentioned and had a lot of dialogue about, of how that may look on the surface, but actually underneath it's completely different. In our world right now at the time of this recording, there's a lot going on. Right? And a lot of churches are being accused, which as you just mentioned, churches are us. Of not saying anything, not promoting a certain agenda. So what would you say to that? Just the idea of silence in the midst of craziness and chaos. What does that look like?

Bob Goff: I don't think people, as a whole, want to be told what to do. I think people want to be reminded who they are. I think the people that have been most influential in my life have reminded me of the importance of various things in my life, but they didn't do it by pointing a bony finger at me. What they did it is by expressing love and having authentic conversations with me to say, "Man, I think..." It's not that they were blowing sunshine at me, but they recognized who I was. They said, "Man, we've tracked a lot of years. But one thing that I've noticed, and I've always been curious about is this." This hasn't made sense to me is I'm trying to reconcile these things in my life. They didn't put themselves in the role of my teacher. They weren't schooling me on something. They were my friend, and because they love me, they wanted to be the fullest, best expression of myself to not only me, but the people I love and the broader community around me.

Bob Goff: Man, you want great advocacy, I've been a lawyer for 33 years. I've never lost a case, and it's not because I'm an awesome lawyer. I'm an awesome picker. What I do is I'm just really mindful about who I'm telling what to do. I think there's just something great, the right word at the right time is always welcome.

Bob Goff: I just don't think that we're as much bouncers as we are ushers. We're not saying who isn't invited. We're just, this idea that grace draws a circle around all of us, and our wonkiness and our shortcomings. Then a grace-filled heart wants to respond by saying, Man, teach me, let me learn from you. Boy. I've got some lessons, some blind spots I didn't know I had. Let me learn." But you don't get there by shaming me or by calling me names. I haven't found that to be good advocacy. I'm not saying blow sunshine at each other. I'm saying having a genuine interest in another person. Then from the basis of this genuine interest, I've had some people genuinely tell me, "These are some things that you need to pay more attention to," and man, I was so grateful. It just came from a beautiful spirit. They just loved me. They didn't have an agenda for me. They just loved me.

Lathan Craft: And that's the level we're all looking for. I think you mentioned a couple times to me as well, the idea of what's written in your cave, right? The idea of cave diving, of seeing what that voice is. We used to mention, Billy said, "No." What that voice is that may be inhibiting you from dreaming. Can you speak into that a little bit?

Bob Goff: Yeah. Following that metaphor, if you think of this sport called spelunking, you go down a cave, and when you get to the bottom, you turn on the light. What I'm thinking about is what's been written on your cave wall? Who told you, you weren't good enough or handsome enough or pretty enough, or whatever enough. You weren't intelligent enough, you weren't rich enough. You weren't poor enough. You weren't, whatever it is, you pick it. You weren't enough. I just want to revisit that to say that, is that really truth? Because some of us are carrying around all this baggage. It's like, we've got Delta airlines worth of baggage that we're carrying around, and I just want to uncover it, so you can actually see it, so you can fix it.

Bob Goff: So if you can see some of the words that have been written on your wall. One of the things that was written on my wall, nobody was intending to mess with my head, is that you're not smart. Isn't that crazy? When I was a young kid, and indeed all the evidence would support that proposition. One of the things though, is that I spent a whole lot of time in college trying to prove that that writing on my wall was wrong.

Bob Goff: I think some of us, if you weren't accepted by a father who just didn't know how to do it, if you had a mom that was distant. If you were raised by parents who were as fallible as everybody else's, and maybe they separated when you were young. So you formed this limiting belief that actually, if you give your love away fully, at some point they'll leave. You don't realize at eight years old, you formed that limiting belief until you're 28, and you have a lot of shallow relationships, and you go, "Wow, I wonder what the thing underneath the thing is. I wonder why I have shallow relationships." It perhaps is because you came to believe at an early age, that if you fully love somebody, that fully give yourself away, if you were totally authentic with them, they'd reject you.

Bob Goff: Paula. I won't give her last name, but Paula dumped me on the day before the prom, I mustered all the courage I had to invite her to the prom two weeks beforehand, and she said, yes, in a moment of weakness. Then the day before she said, "I got a better offer," which is actually every living male from age 12 to 22. So she said, "I'm not going with you." I walked around for 10 years with this feeling that I would not be accepted. If I risk big, ultimately I'll be rejected. If you're listening, boy, pull over to the side of the road and ask yourself, what message have you been giving yourself? Then I would say, I would want to revisit that message. Paula wasn't trying to mess with my head. She just wanted a better date than me.

Bob Goff: That's the only thing that was going on. It was a wise choice on her part. But actually I've come to believe that that is not true. That if I'm your friend, then I don't think you'll reject me. That if I'm married to sweet Maria Goff and you're 33, I don't think she's going to reject me. But we need to listen to, it's kind of like checking the return address on the junk mail that you get and to say, "Is this from somebody I know and trust? Faith is a big deal for me. So I mean, if it isn't coming from Jesus, I'm shucking that. I'd say for some people, you're reading the junk mail, and it would probably serve you if you stopped. But do whatever sounds like a great idea. I'm not telling you what to do.

Lathan Craft: I think along those lines, we talked earlier about God closing doors. You talked about Paula [inaudible] Maria. You have a story with constantly pursuing sweet Maria, which it's also an ambition. So there are people who have been constantly pursuing things and haven't really felt like an answer is there, but you didn't give up. Now you're married for over 30 years. What would you say about that?

Bob Goff: Oh, man. Well, I've been in pursuit of sweet Maria for 33 and a half years. Plus the three years that she, I know she knew my name because she said it often. Like, "No, Bob. Are those pandas in my front yard from you, Bob?" Yeah. So 36 years in a pursuit of sweet Maria. I'm still after that, I'm not trying to earn her love. I'm not trying to curry her favor, I'm just trying to show fully and authentically in that relationship. You know now I'm one day into pursuit of the Kentucky Derby. So I mean, why not go big?

Bob Goff: I don't even know what horses have hooves, and which ones don't, I'm like, "I don't know," but I'm going to learn. If you decide that there's something that's worth the time. I was a real busy guy, I was in law school, and I was super busy. Didn't have a minute for anything until I met sweet Maria, then I had all the time in the world. You know what I mean?

Lathan Craft: I know what you mean.

Bob Goff: I just wanted to get within 10 feet of her, and I would have done anything. Actually this camp that we're at right now, there was a camp going on. So she got some work crew girls together. They all volunteered to wash dishes and doing all that. So as soon as I found out that, I got 10 work crew guys because I wanted to get with it. I had all the time in the world to be near her.

Bob Goff: The first night there was an elderly woman, and in the middle of dinner, her pacemaker stopped, and she keeled over like face in the spaghetti, keeled over and I knew how to do CPR. After about 30 minutes, we got her going again. It was at that moment, I know sweet Maria was thinking, "He's not much to look at, but he could be useful in a pinch."

Bob Goff: So I would say, get within 10 feet of your ambitions again. Get back within 10 feet of Jesus. Get back within 10 feet of that career that you want to get 10 feet. Get in the blast radius of some of these things. Then watch things happen. You want to find Jesus, find the poor. Don't find somebody with an opinion, find somebody with a need. They say, "Everybody's got an opinion. They're like ears." Everybody's got a couple of them.

Bob Goff: But what if we say that there's somebody actually needs, somebody hungry or thirsty or sick or stranger, naked or in jail, then you're good. I teach at Pepperdine Law School, but also at San Quentin penitentiary. So I just do it because Jesus said, "That's what we're going to talk about forever." I'm like, I don't want to be ever go on a first and last date where you ran out of things to say. Can you imagine eternity with Jesus? You'd go like, "Hey, how about those horses?" You'd be like, "Nope."

Bob Goff: How about the coin collection I had? He said, "How about those hungry people? How about those people in jail?" He's like, "Oh, now we're talking." This is actually one of the six things I want to talk about. So there's a purpose behind this. It isn't just, I want lollipops. I want a pony. It's like, actually I want to fill my life with the things that Jesus said would be good things to fill my life with. Not because He needs my help, but because He wants my heart. I think I don't go to teach these prisoners in San Quentin. I go as their student. Say like, "Oh, teach me." Do you know what? You can get two years at San Quentin for having a burner cell phone. I get about a half a dozen calls every month from San Quentin from people. You know what they're interested in doing?

Bob Goff: They just want to know I'm doing okay. Isn't that beautiful? They just want to know I'm okay. They've taken a genuine interest in me. they haven't said what they need. "I need an alibi. I need a file." They're just saying, "I just want to make sure because we're friends that you're okay." Well, I'm telling you, I want to be known as that guy, that takes that kind of interest. That stops what you're doing in the business of everything going on, slow down the cadence, get within 10 feet of a friend, say, "Man, it's been a while since high school." Or if I could track down Paula to just say, "You know what? I don't know if you've been carrying that thing around, but we're good."

Lathan Craft: I think a lot of what you're talking about too is really, you're the horse ranch. Right within the eye distance from you is this new dream that you had, and you're on the first day of it, but it's not surprising. For me, it's not surprising because you know how to dream big, and you've mentioned to me, which completely rocks my world, that I was doing a lot of what I was capable of and not what I was longing for. I think there's a difference of you as lawyer Bob, and then you as love does Bob. Can you talk about like that transition and how you just went for it?

Bob Goff: So all of us are good at something. Sweet maria can tie a cherry stem, a little stem in a knot with her tongue. I have no idea how she does that, but there's more things that she can do than that. She has more talents than that. She's actually empathetic and compassionate and loyal to our family. So you could take the things that you're good at. She's very capable of doing so many things, but she decided that she's going to throw all of her energy into making our family the number one priority. So that was just for her.

Bob Goff: I'm able to be a lawyer. I can remember stuff. Did you know Forrest Gump, when he was running in the iconic scene, when he's running across the desert, and he stops, he'd been running for three years, two months, 14 days and 16 hours? I'm not kidding. Check it out. That's why I can pass bar exams. I remember that stuff. At the end of that time, he paused and everybody's like, he's going to say something. What Forrest said is, "I'm going to go home now." Sweet Maria Goff said that year one. She was just going to always run home to our family. It took me 33 years to wise up, and I canceled all of my speaking events. I've canceled everything. I'm just running home to my kids now. I'm running home to sweet Maria. I'm going to be at home. I've spent so much time being away.

Bob Goff: So for some of you, you have a career, and you know how to do something, whatever it is. Tuning a piano, plumber, physician, cure cancer, whatever it is that you do. I would say, is that a capability or is that a calling? Because if it's just something you're capable of, I would say, "That's great." And you can make rant and buy a horse someday, perhaps. But I would say, what if we pursue your passions? What is it that lights you up? What's something that's going to outlast you? What are the things that people are going to talk about later? I promise you this. Winning the Kentucky Derby will not be something anybody ever talks about, but winning the hearts of my family totally will be.

Bob Goff: That's why I'm running home. So I'm just constantly doing this audit to say, "What's on the wall? Why is it on the wall?" One of the things on my wall was you need to work hard. That's not a bad thing to have on your wall, I suppose. But some of us spend so much time trying to provide for our families that we're not actually providing for our families. I got a tip. Your family wants you. You are not an ATM machine. They would have married Wells Fargo.

Bob Goff: They want you. I think whether you've been running for three years, two months, 14 days and 16 hours, or you've been running for 30 years or 30 minutes, to just run home.

Lathan Craft: Home for you is in San Diego.

Bob Goff: It is.

Lathan Craft: You have built a home in Canada. You built a lodge in Canada that you could only access by private airline. Then this dream of yours that you've been in peace [inaudible] happening, such incredible things were happening. Then all of a sudden, one day the dream seemingly crumbled. What would you talk about? Talking about when a dream kind of burns up.

Bob Goff: Yeah, that sounds more exotic. I like the private airline, like Virgin Atlantic is landing on a strip. You can get there by a leaky boat too, but it's just going to take you a while. My nearest neighbor's 10,000 square miles away. We are out in the bush, and we make our electricity off a glacier on the property. We're totally green. Have been for 25 years. I built this lodge out of logs. First grow cedars. It's awesome. After 15 or 20 years of having this thing in process, finally built, I put one last coat of stain on, had some guys go up and do it. They put some oily rags together. They spontaneously combusted. Burnt it to the ground. Absolutely gone. Not even ashes left when it was done. I think the foundation caught on fire. There's just nothing. But you know what I did? I had a decision to make. It's the decision that everybody has to make, whether it was their house that burned down or a relationship that burned down or career that burned down.

Bob Goff: Something, I just decide what's most important to me. What is it that is my current ambition? I decided I was going to rebuild it. So I bought 150 foot crane, and I just started swinging logs. It took me 210 weeks. Who's counting? But after 210 weeks, it's done. And I think there's something beautiful about that. If you have a passion, something that you would be willing to spend 20 years building and another four years rebuilding. At 61, that's almost half of my life building and then rebuilding this thing. Why do I want to do that? Because it's a place where I want people to come and get better. I don't care if they're leading a country or leading their family. I just want people to get better. So I think for me, the passion, the thing underneath the thing, it isn't a big house that I'm looking for.

Bob Goff: That's just me setting a lot of mice traps. It's having a place where people can just get closer to God, closer to an authentic relationship with the person that they're doing life with. If they could just get real, just put aside what it's supposed to look like, and talk about what it is. That's why we bought this camp. It's not so they can go ride the horses, and you're welcome to do that too. I wanted to create a safe place where people can go full Vegas on it. Like it is staying right here. Whatever happens is staying right here. But you can really get authentic with, what do I want and why do I want it? What am I going to do about it? That's where all big dreams are spawned. They just say, "What do I want?"

Bob Goff: I want to be happy. I think you want to be happy. But the beauty in our friendship is you've gone way underneath that to say, "Well, this is what happy looks like." If happy is for somebody listening to get a convertible Porsche, I mean, that's awesome, but that thing's going to end up in the shop and you're going to be bummed.

Bob Goff: But if you say happy would be to have the person I love the most fully know me, like no secrets. That's what happy with look like. I'd go, "Mazel tov." Man, that's good. That's good. And to say, "So that's what I want." Say, "Why do I want that?" Because I think we all want to be fully known by somebody. By God, by our friends. I think one of the beauties of this crazy season of isolation is that it took away all the shallow friendships that you had at work or at the drinking fountain.

Bob Goff: And it gave you the reality of you just got the deep ones or no ones. That you have deep relationships or you got no relationships. There's no shame in that, but it's great, say, "Wow, I've been feeling all alone, and it's because I don't have anybody I'd ever gone deep with." I'd go like, "Well, that's awesome. Let's go. Come on, let's get under the skin of this thing. Let's pop the hood open, see what's under there and take it for a drive around the block."

Lathan Craft: What would you say to that person who feels like they don't have that person?

Bob Goff: I think they're out there. I think if you're nodding and saying, "I wish that person was there." Could you just think of a thousand people listening to the same podcast at the same time to say, "I don't think I have anybody, and I really wish I did." You can be that person. The way to do it is just to take a genuine interest. I think that's why God made Starbucks. So you can go there and just ask questions. Not tell everybody what you think about everything, but just say, "How do you feel? What's been the high and the low during the last 30 days? What's a time where you felt really lonely?"

Bob Goff: For me, that happens often. Most people experience me as a really yippy, skippy, upbeat guy, but I get really lonely. It's crazy. So on the road, speaking at things and spent a fair amount of time on the other side of the ocean, those are really painful times for me. And to just be able to express that so that people could know that we all have these different sides of ourselves that we're working on constantly.

Lathan Craft: All right, Other Side of the Church family, it's time for this episode's hope holler.

Lathan Craft: We talked a lot, I mean, the whole episode has been about hope because you're a guy full of hope, but you're also a really transparent guy. That's really why I love you. But you talk about standing within 10 feet of your dream, doing what you're longing for [inaudible] love, which is all things that can be tied back to what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode, which is the church. Now, the church can dream again. So with that in mind, there's a trick that we do, a thing called hope holler, which is what would you tell yourself in that loneliness, but also in the cabin that's inflamed in Canada? What would you tell yourself or tell somebody that's in their deepest valley as a word of hope?

Bob Goff: Oh, live your life in constant anticipation. Just remember when you were a kid, you could not wait for the weekend. You didn't know if you're going to take apart somebody's car and reassemble it on the parking lot roof. You just were living in anticipation of the lake you were going to jump in, the thing you were going to do next. I think as we get older, sometimes that anticipation starts being traded in for a lesser version.

Bob Goff: I guess I want us to return back to the eight year old version of us, the one that was leaning forward and say like, "How big is that water slide? I wonder if I'll go right off the edge." And to just be thinking that as you're going. That kind of anticipation. I'm not saying live a life of reckless abandon, I'm saying live a life of purposeful abandon. Be so intentional, so purposeful about this. Because I know it'll produce a new Bob. Not a scarred up, beat up Bob, but I'm willing to risk it. If that's what it takes to get super real.

Bob Goff: I mean, sweet Maria is hoping I will constantly change into a newer, better version of me. When I leave for a day or two, I hope when I walk through the door, it feels like a home invasion, the best kind. Because it's her husband. She recognizes that nose of mine, but the rest of me, she's like, "Wow, you're more humble. You're actually kinder than when you left." If we're living in anticipation of those kind of attributes in our life, I think we'd really be something.

Lathan Craft: I think the key is, what you've told me as well is making sure that our old self doesn't recognize our new self.

Bob Goff: Yes, bingo. The way that we are changing so drastically that our old self can't even identify who our new self is. Yeah. It's like, that was you? It's like looking at an old high school yearbook. Some of the worst advice I ever got was written over dozens of my pages. Maybe yours too. It said, "Never change." Oh, that's so stupid. I think we should be constantly changing. I mean, old Bob, he's on the bus. New Bob arrived here about 12 hours ago. He woke up, he got out of bed. He said, "Let's go find out about ponies."

Lathan Craft: Bob. I mean, I fully believe that this podcast, people's dreams and just talking to you for 20 seconds, your dream can be reignited. You have a book that's about to launch, and [inaudible] probably already has launched called Dream Big. What would people do? They've read your book, and they've read Dream Big, and they want more. How would they find out about you? What could they do to really capture that dream big mentality?

Bob Goff: Oh, best way to capture that dream big mentality, go find a friend. Go find somebody you can be honest with and somebody that's taken an interest. If you don't have that friend that pops to mind, you go find that friend. The best way to find that friend is to be that friend, and you'll draw that out of people. Then, I don't know. What I decided, because I put a such a high value on availability. I put my cell phone number in the back of two and a half million books. So I get a fair amount of calls. About a hundred a day on a normal day.

Bob Goff: If you're feeling lonely or isolated, you can give me a call, but even better, call some of the people. Call Lathan. He'll take your call. To call other people that you've been spending time around, that you want to get inside that 10 foot arc. And just say, could we just go a little bit deeper than we have before? Can I just tell you what's going on? I'd like to know what's going on with you. That's the way, man. That's like jet fuel on a good [inaudible].

Lathan Craft: You are the man. I mean, you are. Maria will probably say that too. If you walked in the house today, you're one of the most humble men I've ever met. New York Times bestseller. Dream Big's going to be a best seller. We all know it. Thank you so much taking the time to interview with me today. I wish you luck on your Kentucky Derby horses as well, and hopefully we'll see you in the Derby as a champion horse breeder.

Bob Goff: Yes, I'll be the only six foot four, 230 pound jockey out there. [crosstalk]. Sight to see. The horse is like, "no, I want this short guy." Yeah.

Lathan Craft: Bob, you're the man. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for hopping on.

Bob Goff: All right, man. See you.

Lathan Craft: What an incredible way to kick off the first episode of the Other Side of the Church? Bob, as I've said, is a friend that a mentor, and I have to say he's one of the most incredible people I know, and I can't think of a better way to start off with episode one.

Lathan Craft: Now every Other Side of the Church episode, we're going to have at the very end, what's called a take-home box. Because sometimes in any type of church setting, we may feel like we've heard something, but don't really know what to do with it. So that's why we have a take home box after every episode. Here's that take home box for this episode. It's spelunking. Bob and I talked about it here in this episode, but what's written on your cave walls? Maybe you're driving right now and you just need to pull over and get out your notes on your phone and just type out what's written on your walls.

Lathan Craft: Or maybe you're just sitting next to a computer and you have a pen and paper next to you. What's written on the walls in your cave, that's not true about who you are today? What I want you to do, what I challenge you to do. What's been transformative for me, both in and out that conversation with Bob is erasing what's on my cave walls and replacing it with truth of who God says that I am. Beloved, I can't promise that every episode is going to have as much energy and as excitement and my conversation with Bob just did, but I can promise you three things. Each conversation will be just as real and no matter what we talk about, we'll always end with the hope holler, and you'll always leave with a take home box.

Lathan Craft: If you're listening to this podcast, I hope that you've listened to the other two episodes that have released at the same time. My conversation with Chad Logan, who's a friend of mine, who's the founder of the Hope Project. We talked about drug addiction, and we get really honest about how drugs affect the body and why the church hasn't really talked about it. The other podcast episode, I talk to Joanna Denstadt, who is a cancer survivor, which cancer is a word that you don't really hear that often. We talked about her ministry, Radiant Hope and how she's bringing her pain and making it her platform for people to find purpose in the pain. Radiant Hope about cancer. You don't want to miss it. Next time I'll sit down with Pastor Kate Murphy, who wrote an incredible article about how the church in America needs to repent. You don't want to miss it. Until then, I'm Lathan Craft, and this is Other Side of the Church.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Other Side of the Church. You can find out more about this episode on our website, theotherside.church. If you haven't subscribed to our podcast, we would love for you to join our family. You can subscribe anywhere podcasts are available. As always, don't forget, you are loved. You are accepted, and you matter.

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